Military History Encyclopedia Forum

[Hard Rain Falling]

Are the Allied forces repeating history? not just vietnam but possibly the Russian mistakes of their invasion of Afghanistan.
With the Heavy US assault of Fajula is the battle for hearts and minds already lost and could a secular state with a hard line christain as President ever win a battle for hearts and minds of a muslim country?

[fknorr]

[Hard Rain Falling]

Dont confuse iraqi insurgents (a technical term for those in insurrection) with supporters of Bin Laden. There are many groups fighting the Allied forces in iraq, some resort to terrorism and are supporters of Bin Laden and such groups. Others are pro Saddam who is a swore enemy of Bin Laden and a person who Al Qaedia have vowed to kill in the past. Through heavy handed techniques the US has turned most of the country against them and done something Saddam failed to do, unite Sunni and Shiite muslims in a common cause.
There are no links nor have there ever have been between Al Qaedia and Saddams regime (unlike the Taliban in Afghanistan) and many of the insurgents are not religious extremists. Granted the removal of the dictorship of Saddam in Iraq was not a bad thing

[fknorr]

[Locke]

i agree with fknoor it doesnt not really matter if u confuse the iraqi insurgents and the bin laden supporters they both have a common goal kill as many infidels(americans)as possible. What i think the US did wrong in all this is the planning they are smart they must of expected it would take a long time after saddam was taken out of power to totally reform a government and a society.forming such things in history has taken 100s of years but yet the US expected it to probably be over in the next 5-15 yrs. the guerilla attacks will not stop anytime soon and i think all the service ppl are in for a long bloody future. The only real option we have is basicly try to get other countrys involved and relieve the strain on us or just leave them with there new elected government and united Sunni and Shiite and just basicly hope for the best and let human nature and history take its course. and the last thing i have to say is they should leave nothing to the UN because the UN has no real power or authority and nevr completely follows through with anything its for.[/i]

[JohnRickardJR]

The problem we face if we don't distinquish between the insurgents and the Bin Ladens supporters is that we turn the former into the later. The Iraqi insurgents are concentrating on actions within Iraq, but Bin Laden has a wider target in mind - if we allow the two to become one because of inept policing (anyone want a job in the Italian Secret Service?) then we create a huge new pool of recruits to commit attrocities around the world
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[Locke]

when i said it doesnt really matter if we confuse the 2 i was basicly sayin that the ones in iraq right now because it is not only the insurgents that are attacking us there it is also the bin laden supporters and muslims claiming to fight for religion against the "infidels". but i do also understand what u are sayin we should actauly porbably pay more of are attention on bin laden supporters because they are more spread out and a more unpredictable enemy. another point i want to make is what is the US doin about north korea and such they in my opoin are much more dangorous since they have nuclear capibilitys. I also think that since we have the UN we should actauly have it have power so it can enforce its rules of nuclear capibilities. because how it is now the UN has no point to its being either it should be done away with or it should be given actaul power.

[JohnRickardJR]

The UN does a lot of very important but low key work - Medical work, refugee support and that sort of thing that would probably not get done otherwise. A lot of people depend on the UN now, and despite it's high profile problems, we shouldn't forget that.
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[Locke]

the UN was orginaly made to stop world wars but it really doesnt have any power to do that besides diplomacy which is very inaffective the other things it does are good but the main reason it was made it probably cant even full fill that.

[JohnRickardJR]

The other things it does are essential to millions of people all over the world. World wars appear to have stopped simply because of the nuclear stalemate - noone can believe they can win a world war any more.
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[Hard Rain Falling]

the UN has also organised peacekeeping , borkered cease fires and peace treaties in hundreds of small wars around the world especially in africa, organised massive humanitarian relief operations and even foguth against the illegal drugs trade using satelitte recon and educational programs
real pwoer doesnt always come from the barrel of a gun and the US would do well to learn that and fast
provoking a war with North Korea could have drastic and undoable effects afterall no 2 countires with nuclear weapons have ever gone to war
IS G W Bush really that different from some of the 3rd world leaders he would like to prevent getting nukes?

[Nicholas]

I am not a huge fan of having our men and women over there fighting and dying...I've had several nephews & friends over there already and all have come home safely, so far but this is far from over. I do feel it is better to kill all of them over there as opposed to having any more 9/11's.


So you're saying the U.S. should kill more people in Iraq, then the terrorists did in 9/11 so that you Americans don't loose lives? What a load of bull5h|t.
That makes you no better then Bin Laden, or any other terrorist. Suddam was a bad leader, yes, but America is after their oil. Nothing more. Suddam isn't as bad as a leader as some. Bush is worse the Suddam.


You're nothing more then a selfish pig, who does not deserve to exist on this world.

[JohnRickardJR]

I think you'll find the 'them' in the quote isn't the Iraqi people, but Al-Quida and similar extremists, who have posed a real threat to everyone else for much longer than George Bush has.
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[cj.linton]

Hi there, i'm new to this site and have just had a quick browse through these statments by people.

well these are my views for what they are worth.

Is it a good thing to get rid of Saddam... Yes oh yes!

Should it have been done 10 years ago by Bush Senior... Yes (though the Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian and possibly Saudi forces who fought in the first gulf war would have been a little pi$$ed).

Should the U.S and British forces waited for the U.N to pull it's head out of its ar$e before going in... yes, there would be more soldiers keeping a better post on the very dodgy borders of Iraq, where the Insurgents are coming from (unless Ryan Air is flying them in?).

Should the Americans start to fight a hearts and mind campaign now that they have nothing really to shoot at?... yes, as the British have done in the south (although 100 Brits have now been killed, most of these have been killed by radical insurgents and not Iraqi's themselves)

after reading something along the lines of '' kill all of the people in Iraq so no more 9/11's happen''... this is exactly what the enemies of the coalition want to hear... this is their reason to keep fighting.

I'd like to ask any Americans who use this site tis question... if Bin Laden should win this war against terror and he floods YOUR country with troops, tanks, helicopters and basically takes over the country... would you be happy?... would you just bend over and take it up the ar$e?

Or would you fight back? with whatever means at your disposal... dodgy guns that are more lethal to you than your target... rickety old RPG's that only hit their targets one out of ten times... if your family was at risk by a foriegn tyrant in your back yard would you strap a bomb to yourself and go out and kill as many of the ba$tards as possible.

I know people will say '' but when they blow themselves up they are killing Iraqi people too ''... well they are killing Foreign soldiers too... and the Iraqis caught in the blast would not have died if the Soldiers where not there... another thing is that '' it's not just Soldiers they are targetting'' ... that is true, but then again there is more than one war going on in Iraq, the Sunni and the Shia don't exactly get along do they?

these are a couple of my views, thank you for your time to read these.

[makrsmark]

Hey All,

Just registered, though the forums look a bit slow.

In disagreement to the member before me, waiting for the UN would have been an enourmous mistake and only would have most likely contributed to more coalition casualties.

The UN is a corrupt and impotent organization. Clear and Simple. Take Kosovo, Rwanda, oil for food.

The UN stated it's position clearly, and we needed to take decisive action. What's clear now is why they were such stauch detractors. Russia, France, and various UN members were taking bribes from saddam. I'm not talking little bribes. I'm talking tens of thousands of barrells or oil...per the oil for food program of course. In addition, Russia wanted access to Iraq oil, and had contracts for such. France and Germany both had contract agreements for technology and various arms. The UN was in the pocket of the Saddam, and if you propose we wait for the crooks to turn over a new leaf then I strongly oppose, particularly when it's our boys that are getting killed.

Secondly, WE ARE THE UN. Financially, and militarily. I personally feel that we should withdraw from the UN (who btw even proposed a tax on american citizens...which wasn't approved).

We should attempt to uncorrupt that sorry organization, and in not, form the United Coalition. btw, check out who heads various councils of the UN. Syria is on the security council....SECURITY COUNCIL??? That's where most of the insurgents came from, yeah, they're on the up and up. I think it was Lebanon who's (or was) involved in the Human Rights branch....LEBANON???? WTF is going on!!!

As far as winning the hearts and minds. WE ARE though you never see it on TV. Poth primetime news and even much of cable news dont' want that PROGRESS to be shown to the American people.

I know of the hearts and minds becuase every soldier I meet I ask to have them share their veiws on Iraq. Each one agreed that we should be there, one questioned why, but was glad we were there. Each one listed the successes that they have accomplish, from womens shelters, to opening and supplying schools, to reopening squares and markets.

If you look at the most recent stats/polls from the Iraqi people, the majority feel safe and are very content with the progress. Many have much more wealth, are opening business, becoming educated, etc. YOu won't see this on CBS news. Not for Dan Rathers life. Or is it ABC??

For every one line that you read that says, and I quote "''kill all of the people in Iraq so no more 9/11's happen,'' there are tens of thousands, probably more like hundreds of thousands, if not more, that say "KILL ALL THE AMERICAN INFIDELS"

and by the way, the correct method of killing an infidel as directed by mohammed or allah, whatever, is by decapitation, aka, sawing off your head with a rusty butter knife (if you saw the video of the berg murder you will know what i'm referring to).

The problem with this war is you have much of European "elites" or socailists praying for our failure. The insurgents see this and it rallies them. They see the left in our own country, the democrats, and worse, the liberals, rooting for another vietnam, and they are doing what they can to make that happen. The insurgants are no fools, they know the workings of democracy, american, the free world, they know our technology and how to take advantage of it, many were educated here, and now will be taking that education there. If you don't think that they love hearing every syllable come out of Howard "ARRRAHHHHHHHHGG" Dean's mouth, you're most mistaken.

He's the basic Dem speal over the last few years. This will be a long drawn battle over Bagdad, it fell in days, this will be another vietnam, tens of thousands of casualties, we have a few (i am in no way dismissing the casualties by the way as insignifiant in ANY WAY), then there will never be a democracy, then there's a vote, the vote was rigged, then it was confirmed, hamas get's elected, democracies are not necessesarily good.....and on it goes.

they root for failure, they root for casualties, they root for iraqi bondage, genocide, and torture. they're are one sick party

THE FOLLOWING LOGIC CONFOUNDS ME:

AND I QUOTE: "I'd like to ask any Americans who use this site tis question... if Bin Laden should win this war against terror and he floods YOUR country with troops, tanks, helicopters and basically takes over the country... would you be happy?... would you just bend over and take it up the ar$e?"

This type of thinking scares me. It sounds like logic but is far from it. First I'm wondering if he means Saddam instead of Bin Laden, but if he's referring to BL and our invation of Afganistan then fine. Listen pal, WE INVADE WHERE PEOPLE ARE BEING TRAINED TO KILL AMERICAN CITIZENS. WOMEN, CHILDREN, OLD AND YOUNG, CRIPPLED, ABLEBODIED. WE FIND THEM IN THEIR HOLES AND KILL THEM. And thank god we do or your head would be rolling down the street right about now.

You compare our taking action to protect ourselves with military action to wanting to kill and decapitat a nation of people...the infidels, who btw have no godly right to ever step foot on arab soil.

you're like the people that compare, let's say me, b/c I have a US flag hanging on my house to the people that hung the nazi flag on their house. A couple of differences though. Mine is out of a love of freedom and liberty to all. their was out of fear and lack of courage, or just genuine evil. A lot of people don't like the word evil, and dont' think it's quite valid anymore. "no one can be evil" they rant. what made them "evil"? what we do to make them evil? screw that, gassing and burning six million people is evil. I'm sry, but there's a bit of a difference between my flag and theirs (and they btw were against stopping the genocide, and looking for WMD's....whihc we coudn't find prior b/c we weren't allowed in (the UN). Now they say that they were moved to syria because we waited so long. it looks like too long, rather than not long enough my friend.

however, if BL, came and let's say freed me from some sort of bondage, genocide, murder, torture, adn the like, I don't think i'd have much of a problem. you get it. i certainly want to fight them and decapitate them. but he/they want the people in bondage. he wants to be a messiah of some sort. and for the love of god, if you say that you'd strap a bomb to your back, run onto a school bus full of kids, then i question your mental acuity.

and no sunni and shiite don't get along, but we can't let one rape, pillage, and murder the other. not too long ago we didnt' get along with the irish, or the italian's, or jews, or germans. we got over it. through hard work, freedom, and over time, open mindedness, which is cultivated through freedom and human rights.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. As you can probably see, I strongly disagree. I think your mind's in the right place, but you should delve a bit deeper into the problem.

regards